We have spent the last two years going back and forth about whether to move into a new fifth wheel trailer or a new toy hauler as we look forward to our second dozen years of non-stop travel and full-time RV living. We’ve been to tons of dealerships and did a bunch of toy hauler factory tours in the Elkhart area of Indiana as well as in Missouri and Oklahoma (there’s more about those tours is in the 2nd half of this article).
The Train
Right now we are in the testing phase of toting our Polaris RZR 900 XC EPS Edition on a 5′ x 10′ utility trailer in a triple-tow configuration (sometimes called a double-tow) behind our 2016 Dodge Ram 3500 dually truck and 2007 36′ Hitchhiker fifth wheel trailer.
Another view of The Train
As I’ve mentioned a few times over the past few months since we started this experiment, triple towing is working out a whole lot better that we expected!
This may be in large part because the utility trailer is only 5′ wide compared to the 8′ width of our fifth wheel trailer, so even on a tight U-turn, the wheels on the fifth wheel carve a tighter turn than the wheels on the utility trailer. So, if there’s something we don’t want to roll over or hit, the vehicle at risk is the fifth wheel, just as it has always been!
The utility trailer just cruises along behind. It’s a little caboose!
When we’re triple towing we notice a lot more chucking action than when we don’t have out caboose connected. This is due to the accordion and jerking action of the three vehicles moving apart and back together as they rumble down the road. It’s not a violent sensation, but we can definitely feel it.
We’ve been to a few gas stations… yikes!
We have been to several gas stations fully hooked up as The Train. Even though The Train is quite long and winds up curved far behind us as we turn in to the pump, as long as the gas station is large enough and there aren’t too many customers, it all works out.
That RZR sure is a long ways from the pump!
We have also been to several RV dump stations with The Train, and again, as long as the approach and exit to the dump station aren’t too narrow or laid out in a tight turn, we can align the fifth wheel sewer hose and other goodies with the RV dump station while the truck and utility trailer sit in a curve ahead of and behind the dump station sewer.
We’ve been to a few RV dump stations.
We’re okay dumping our tanks as long as it’s fairly long!
We set up the utility trailer with a spare tire and tire cover just in case that trailer gets a blowout. At this point we don’t have a backup camera to watch the utility trailer while we’re towing. That may come in the future but will take some research as we figure out which model and where to place the monitor in the already full cockpit of the truck.
Unfortunately the utility trailer is too small to carry our bikes as well. A 12′ long trailer would be long enough, but our RZR came with this trailer so it’s a natural starting point. So, for the moment, we have left the bikes behind at a friend’s house.
We’re leaving the bikes out of the equation for the moment.
When loading the RZR onto the utility trailer, Mark drives the RZR’s front wheels flush up against the front of the trailer which leaves enough room behind it for two 5 gallon gas tanks lashed down on the utility trailer.
With the wheels flush against the front railing there’s room for two 5 gallon gas tanks in back.
Before hitching up The Train the very first time, we had to sort out the different heights between the tongue of the utility trailer and the hitch receiver on the back end of the fifth wheel.
Our fifth wheel trailer now sits some 6 to 8 inches higher than it did when we first bought it. After our fifth wheel got a desperately needed suspension overhaul when the suspension failed (blog post here), the fifth wheel sat higher than it had originally. Then, when we installed the MORryde SRE4000 equalizers, it sat even higher.
This is awesome for those pesky gas station ramps and other sharp dips in the road that are so steep they cause the back end of the fifth wheel trailer to drag on the asphalt. It’s also great for bumping over washes and other things on gnarly dirt roads.
However, all that good drag-avoidance stuff got thrown out the window with the decision to triple tow!
The utility trailer has 15″ tires and sits quite low, and in order to keep that trailer relatively flat instead of nose-up while towing, we had to put a 10″ drop hitch mount on the fifth wheel trailer’s hitch receiver to reach down to the utility trailer’s level.
We needed a 10″ drop hitch mount to reach down to the utility trailer
We use a receiver hitch tightener to eliminate any possible rattling in the connection between the receiver hitch and the hitch mount, and an electric plug ensures the lights on the utility trailer are powered and light up at night as well as when Mark hits the brakes.
The hitch tightener keeps things from rattling and the electric plug lights up the lights on the utility trailer
To learn more about hitch tighteners, see our blog post HERE:
Hitch Tighteners – Anti-Rattle Hitch Clamps Stop the Creaks & Wiggles!
If you stand behind The Train at night and have someone tap the brakes in the truck, it’s quite a light show because not only do the lights on the fifth wheel light up, but the ones on the utility trailer do too. We almost never tow at night but it’s good to know The Train is so visible on dark and stormy travel days.
It was a dark and stormy morning…
We’re really glad we decided to jump in with both feet and buy a RZR before we figured out how to transport it because there is nothing like hands-on experience to figure out what works and what doesn’t.
This is also why we always encourage new would-be full-time RVers who haven’t owned an RV before to get a cheap and small RV and go have some fun before investing big bucks in a full-time rolling home.
The biggest surprise we’d never thought of before is that it is super handy to have a utility trailer to tote the RZR behind our truck when we’re going to a trailhead that is a long distance from our campsite.
There’s an advantage to being able to tow the RZR to a distant trailhead.
Although our RZR can go 70 mph and is licensed for the road, driving it on the highway is not what we got it for. We’d rather drive 25 or 50 miles to a trailhead in the comfort of our truck and then arrive with the RZR gas tank full of gas so we can enjoy our off-road adventures without worrying about carrying spare gas.
The RZR has a 10 gallon fuel tank and gets about 15 mpg. So far, none of our adventures has been more than about 40 miles, so we don’t foresee a need to carry gas with us on the RZR any time soon.
At the end of a day of off-road adventure, after the sun has set, we find it’s much safer to drive our truck on the highway than to be out there in a little open air buggy that sits a lot lower on the road than most cars and trucks.
The RZR rolls on and off the trailer ramp.
Lastly, we’ve wanted to ensure that Buddy loves the RZR. For us and our lifestyle there’s no reason to own a RZR if our puppy doesn’t want to come along. We’ve integrated him into our lives so he doesn’t spend any time in our fifth wheel by himself. If we’re going to have RZR adventures, he’s going to be a part of them.
When we’re in the RZR, Buddy sits on my lap. I don’t want to go more than about 35 mph with him sitting in there. He’s not too keen on the loud noise of the RZR engine on the highway and of vehicles passing us, and I have to say, neither am I.
His favorite thing riding in the RZR is to sniff the air when we’re off-road, watch for rabbits, and to stare down at the dirt road going by just below RZR door. All that is lots of fun at 10-15 mph, our typical dirt road speed.
Mark has mastered driving the 56″ wide RZR onto the 60″ wide trailer!
We have a B&W Stow & Go hitch on the back of our truck, and the utility trailer hitches up to the truck very easily. After one or two tries loading the RZR, Mark has figured out how to align it so it drives in without rubbing the wheels on the railings at all even though the railings are 60″ apart and the RZR is about 56″ wide.
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When we arrive at a trailhead, Mark drops the ramp door of the utility trailer, hops in the RZR, and backs it down the ramp. The driver’s door on the RZR swings out above the railing on the utility trailer, so he can get in and out of the RZR easily when it’s on its trailer.
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The RZR came with a windshield, roof and a fancy stereo that the previous owner had installed, and this XC EPS edition of the RZR 900 includes upgraded wheels, wider fender flares, a hitch receiver and the Polaris Ride Command navigation system.
However, the trunk is just a shallow open area at the back, not the best place to store stuff if you don’t want it to get dirty.
We tossed around ideas and finally bought a Lifetime 55 quart cooler that sits very nicely on an old welcome mat in the back of the RZR. It is lashed down to keep it in place.
We use a Lifetime 55 quart cooler for easy flip-top trunk system.
What we love about this cooler is that we can keep all the little essentials we always want with us — emergency water, toolbag, flat repair & spare air kit, first aid kit — in the bottom of it at all times, and we can throw things like jackets, hats, cameras and snacks on top as we need them for each ride.
The flip top lid makes it super easy to access everything in the cooler, and it has an excellent seal when it is closed which keeps everything inside dust free. We’ve also put a long shank padlock on the cooler to keep the less determined thieves out. Of course, anyone that really wanted that cooler and its contents could simply carry it away.
Another great feature of the cooler is that the things in the bottom of it don’t get overly hot. The engine sits right below the RZR’s trunk area, but since this little “portable trunk” is actually a cooler, there’s lots of insulation between the contents of the cooler and the engine below.
You can see a hilarious video of a grizzly bear trying to get into one of these coolers here.
We’ve found that the multi-use trails that allow motorized vehicles are not only lots of fun for riding but are also great for running and hiking too. Sometimes Buddy and I hop out to run while Mark drives.
Unlike yours truly, Buddy can easily keep up with the RZR and loves chasing it at top speed. But after he’s done a 5 minute mile with some surges to 3 minute mile pace thrown in, he’s usually ready to ride again, and he happily jumps back in.
Need a ride?
Come on in!
Easy!
We’ve experimented with quite a few scenarios for arriving at a campsite and unhitching the bits and pieces of The Train.
The utility trailer has to be hitched up to something — either the truck or the fifth wheel trailer — in order to drive the RZR on or off of it. Otherwise, once the RZR wheels roll on or off the ramp the tongue of the utility trailer will fly up in the air.
So, at campsites where we want to use the utility trailer with the truck to take the RZR somewhere, we have to move the utility trailer from its caboose position at the end of The Train to a place where it can be hitched to the truck, and then we reverse its location before we leave.
We can move the utility trailer around small distances by pushing or pulling it ourselves. However, if the RZR is on the trailer, neither is going anywhere until the utility trailer gets hitched to either the truck or fifth wheel.
The RZR has a hitch receiver on it, and we purchased a ball mount for it, so the RZR can tow the utility trailer around if needed. This is handy in small campsites since the big long bed dually truck isn’t very maneuverable in tight spaces.
Luckily the RZR can also do the job of towing the utility trailer, if needed.
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Again, we learned a few things that we hadn’t thought of before.
First, although it seemed daunting to back the fifth wheel to the utility trailer to hitch it on when it’s already got the RZR loaded on it, it’s not all that bad. Using our two-way radios as Mark backs up the fifth wheel and I stand at the tongue of the utility trailer, and then using our feet to shove the tongue of the utility trailer the final inch or two, we can get it done quite easily.
Second, if the utility trailer is already hitched to the fifth wheel but is at an angle to the fiver and not aligned straight behind it, there is a lot of lateral force on the fifth wheel’s stabilizing jacks and the front landing legs when the RZR drives onto the trailer.
If the utility trailer is aligned with the fifth wheel, the fiver takes the impact much better (I’ve stood inside the fifth wheel and felt it both ways!).
Mark has sorted out how best to tie down the RZR on the utility trailer.
The ramp door folds up.
Tying down a side-by-side either on a flatbed trailer or inside an enclosed trailer can be super easy or relatively difficult and frustrating.
At first, we did it the hard way by using traditional ratchet straps. Unfortunately, the straps would loosen easily as we traveled. So, we had to stop and check the straps, often several times if we were traveling 100 miles or more in one trip.
Then Mark discovered CargoBuckle Retractable Ratchet Tie-downs. These are a total game changer. They mount permanently onto the frame of the flatbed trailer. To tie down the RZR, simply pull the strap out of the CargoBuckle, hook it to an attachment point on the RZR and ratchet it down. To unload the RZR, just loosen the hook and let the strap retract into the CargoBuckle. We use four of them, one for each corner of the RZR. To learn more, read our post HERE:
CargoBuckle Retractable Ratchet Tie-Downs – SO EASY!
We are liking this triple towing thing and may stick with it. We’ll see. If we do, then our new home search will be focused on conventional fifth wheel trailers rather than fifth wheel toy haulers.
There are pros and cons to both conventional fifth wheels and toy hauler fifth wheels. Here are a few we’ve come up with:
| Conventional 5th Wheel | Toy Hauler 5th Wheel |
| More Living Space | Less Living Space |
| More Closet Space | Less Closet Space |
| More Cabinets | Fewer Cabinets |
| Bigger Kitchen | Smaller Kitchen |
| Recliners + Sofa + Dining Table | Pick any two |
| Generally, bed in slide w/ windows each side | Generally, bed not in slide & window on one side & small wardrobe on other |
| Modest fresh water (60-90 gal) | Huge fresh water (100-150 gal) |
| No gas tanks (onboard generator propane) | Two gas tanks for toy & onboard generator |
| Outside RZR Storage | Enclosed RZR Storage |
| Outside Bikes | Enclosed Bikes |
| Porta-bote or inflatable kayak possible | Porta-bote AND tandem inflatable kayak possible |
| Workbench on truck tailgate | Workbench/toolbox in the Garage |
| No Porch/deck (except KZ 382MBQ) | Back Deck AND Possible Side Patio (always includes 2nd bath) |
| Tow RZR to trailhead behind truck | Drive RZR on highways to trailhead |
| Triple tow not legal in some states | Always a legal beagle |
| Can travel w/o caboose | Full length toy hauler is always with you (47′ in some cases!) |
TRAILER LIFE ARTICLE – SHORTCUT to TOY LAND!
The March issue of Trailer Life Magazine features an article I wrote surveying some of the 2019 offerings in the toy hauler market. I chose four different toy haulers to highlight in that article and included another dozen models in the lineup.
Our personal favorites for sheer innovation and cleverness and/or ruggedness are the Aluminum Toy Hauler fifth wheel and the Keystone Raptor 427.
Aluminum Toyhauler Company (ATC) has been making stackable car haulers for the high end racing car set for ages. They build an incredibly strong and durable toy hauler. Unfortunately, they don’t have any models with slide-outs yet, but their toy haulers are built like tanks and can haul 9,700 lbs. of stuff in a trailer that has a GVWR of 21,000 lbs. Unbelievable!
The Keystone Raptor 427 is a fabulous new entry into the garage-under-the-master-bed style of toy hauler. Montana and Grand Design have these floor plans too: the Montana High Country 380TH and Grand Design Momentum 376TH (and formerly the Grand Design Solitude 374TH which was discontinued a few months ago).
I included the Montana 380TH in my full-time fifth wheel article in Trailer Life Magazine that appeared in the October 2017 issue.
All of these manufacturers place the bedroom in the rear of the trailer and put a small garage big enough for bikes or a motorcycle under the bed itself. A workbench could fit in this garage. The bed above the garage raises and lowers if you need full standing height in the garage.
Montana and Grand Design place the kitchen in the middle of the rig. Montana has a beautiful open L-shaped kitchen with counters along two walls, a style that I like, and Grand Design has an island kitchen that is very popular. Both put the living room in the fifth wheel overhang.
The clever idea in the Raptor 427 is that the kitchen, which doesn’t need vaulted ceilings, is smartly placed in the part of the trailer where high ceilings can’t exist: the fifth wheel overhang. I don’t know what the headroom is there, probably around 6′ 4″ or higher, but it was more than sufficient for cooking, dining and even entertaining a cocktail party or buffet crowd! And there’s a window in the front cap so you can see out in all directions.
The kitchen is truly vast, and there is a side-by-side dinette for two that overlooks the living room. We just loved the design. For us, though, it’s too long a trailer since we’d have to tow our RZR behind (it’s 44′ long), and we’d prefer hydraulic slides to cable slides in the bigger slide-outs. Our two hydraulic slide mechanisms and single worm-gear electric slide mechanism on our current trailer have pushed our slides in or out an estimated 2,000 times so far.
The Keystone Raptor 427 has an immense kitchen in the front of the trailer.
The counter space is incredible (although I could do without the purple lights)
Seating for two overlooking the rest of the trailer – very cool!
Opposing loveseats in the slides plus dual recliners facing the TV (not seen in this pic).
Looking back up into the kitchen above the recliners
The bike or motorcycle sized garage is under the bed. The ceiling raises and lowers.
You can read my article discussing the various toy haulers on the Trailer Life website here: Shortcut to Toyland with 16 Great Fivers
The March issue of Trailer Life happens to include two other articles of mine with photos by both of us: a feature article about RVing in the Canadian Rockies and my back page column about lovely Maroon Bells in Colorado!
If you are new to RVing, Trailer Life is a good magazine to subscribe to. If you are a motorhome person, the sister publication Motorhome Magazine (which also features our work from time to time), is another excellent magazine.
Another outstanding RV magazine and RV advocacy group and discount camping membership club and mail forwarding service, among many other things, is Escapees RV Club which we highly recommend joining.
IMPRESSIONS from VISITING the TOY HAULER FACTORIES
When were in Elkhart, Indiana, last fall (2018), we visited several RV manufacturing plants. We hadn’t done a factory tour in Elkhart since the spring of 2009 when the industry was in the midst of collapse.
The consolidation in the RV industry since the beginning of the recession of 2008 has been staggering and has whittled the list of RV manufacturers down to three conglomerates: Thor, Forest River and Winnebago. It has also reduced the list of major component suppliers down to two, Lippert Components and Furrion. Mom-and-pop shops making fifth wheel trailers independently of these conglomerates like Aluminum Toy Hauler, New Horizons and Space Craft and smaller component suppliers like MORryde are exceedingly rare.
The fraternity of talent at the top of the RV industry is very close knit and goes back many decades. If you follow the mergers and acquisitions back to the 1960s and 70s, the same names appear over and over in the executive suites of each company. The brothers who founded Keystone together with another executive who oversaw its huge growth sold it to Thor which itself was the result of the acquisition of failing Airstream from Beatrice Foods. After the three held top executive positions at Thor, these three men went on to found Grand Design and oversee its growth and sale to Winnebago. One of the partners sat on the Board of Directors over at Lippert Components, and after the sale to Winnebago another of the partners left the RV industry to start a pontoon boat company in partnership with Lippert Components.
The advantage to the rise of the conglomerates is wonderful economies of scale, but the flip side for the brands under these corporate umbrellas is the loss of the wild frontier style innovation that made early RVs so fun and funky as well as the forced adoption of quality standards that may not match the standards these brands had back when they were independent companies.
A Dishwasher = “That True Residential Feel”
Perhaps the most shocking thing for us was to discover how few people in the RV industry actually own and use RVs. I asked the general manager of one brand and a national sales rep of another what kind of RVs they owned, and the answers were, “I’m too busy to vacation in an RV” and “My wife likes hotels.”
This lack of personal RV experience has caused a disconnect between the manufacturers and their customers’ needs.
A perfect example was when a top executive at one brand told me that full-timers want a true residential feel to their fifth wheels, so every unit in his line of full-timer fifth wheels would be shipped with a dishwasher in it starting in 2019.
Now, of course, lots of full-timers want a dishwasher in their RV, but a lot of full-timers don’t want one.
Another executive at a different company told me, “Well, the dishwasher is a great place to store your dishes in an RV.”
It is? I’m not keen on mixing my clean and dirty dishes in the same storage place!
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Check out our reactions to LIVING in a toy hauler HERE!
A National Sales Rep proudly showed me the outdoor kitchen on his toy hauler. He was so excited about it when he pulled it out, “Emily, you’re going to love this!” But when he pulled it out, it came to shoulder level on me. I’m 5′ 4″. I raised my arm and made a stirring motion with my hand in front of my chin and said, “I can’t cook like this.” He was crestfallen.
I began asking the executives we were meeting how they get their feedback from customers, and it seemed that they rely on a combination of the orders placed by the dealership buyers and by talking to people at trade shows.
So, it turned out that because 95% of the units of the one brand had been ordered with dishwashers in 2018, it was obvious there was a massive demand for dishwashers. So that’s why all units will have dishwashers going forward.
Similarly, since the sales rep with the outdoor kitchen had seen only grins and enthusiasm when he showed it to folks dropping by the booth at trade shows, he thought his outdoor kitchen was something his customers loved.
Ironically, doesn’t it make sense for dealers to put predominantly fully decked out units on their lots to show customers what can be ordered? And when you’re gallivanting around at an RV trade show and having a ball dancing in and out of tons of brand new units, are you really going to tell that smiling and friendly sales guy that his outdoor kitchen would never work for you?
The takeaway we got from all this is not to be shy and to find out who the buyer is at your local dealership and to tell them what you like and don’t like about the units on their lot. It seems that the closest the residents of the RV manufacturers’ executive suites come to their customers is the contact they have with the folks ordering their units in their dealer network.
ESCAPEES RV CLUB and WINNEBAGO
Fortunately and fabulously, Escapees RV Club and Winnebago have begun working together to get real feedback from real RVers into the design process. This project is in its earliest phase right now, but the emails I’ve received from Escapees about it are very encouraging. It is because of this kind of innovative and forward thinking at Escapees that we keep recommending our readers join Escapees. (They give us a tip if you mention “Roads Less Traveled” when you sign up, but we’d recommend them anyway!).
Founded by Kay and Joe Peterson, Escapees RV Club has been led by three generations of family members who have spent years on the road living in their RVs. They are the real deal when it comes to understanding the RV lifestyle.
TRAILERS BUILT by the AMISH
On a completely different note, some folks feel that a trailer built by Amish hands is of better quality than one made by other hands. It certainly makes for great marketing, especially for the companies that are in the heart of Amish country and employ lots of Amish people. We saw Amish workers in some of the plants, both men and women, but we didn’t see how their work could be substantially different than the work done by anyone else on the same assembly line.
The Amish really do work at the RV factories. They do the same jobs as other assembly line workers.
The factory workers are given jobs to do and are told how to do them. The quality standards and aseembly techniques are determined by corporate goals in areas like profitability, target market share, and unit build time to completion.
While a conscientious individual might put tremendous thought and care into a backyard project at their own home, the work they do on the assembly line at their job for an employer will be done the way management demands and not necessarily in a way that they would choose for their own personal project at home.
Before I tell you, take a quick guess at how long it takes to build a 44′ toy hauler fifth wheel. A month? A week?
At the Raptor plant we were told it takes 3 days. At the KZ plant it is 2.5 days. They have a ton of hands working simultaneously, and they all get the job done as quickly as possible.
INDEPENDENT MANUFACTURERS – ATC, Sundowner, Luxe, Space Craft, New Horizons
Independent RV manufacturing plants like ATC and Sundowner (another new entrant into the toy hauler market coming frome the horse trailer industry) take a few days longer to build their units than the bigger mass market brands. This partly because fewer people work on each trailer at a time, and partly because they start from scratch and build their own frames, doors and ramps rather than buying a ready-made frame, door and ramp.
Both ATC and Sundowner looked appealing to us, and we toured each plant. ATC is near Elkhart in Nappannee and Sundowner is in Oklahoma.
Unfortunately, without any slideouts we couldn’t fit our lives and belongings into an ATC fifth wheel toy hauler, and although the Sundowner toy haulers are an aerodynamic two feet shorter than standard fifth wheel toy haulers and are built with a fifth wheel gooseneck hitch which makes a fabulouos connection to the truck and completely frees up the truck bed when you’re not towing, they are also built with a very small bedroom because of the short gooseneck overhang.
However, for folks who have other lifestyle needs than ours, both the ATC and Sundowner deserve a good long look as they are sturdy, well built and rugged trailers that can be modestly customized on order and that have an intermediate price point between the mass market trailers and the high end custom units (New Horizons, Luxe and Space Craft). We visited Luxe and went to Space Craft a second time but will get into that in another post.
ALTERNATE SUPPLIERS – MORryde, Dexter
I mentioned the RV parts manufacturer MORryde, and as we studied toy haulers it seemed to us that there are two components in toy haulers these days where the MORryde version is superior to the competition: the ramp door and the stairs. Likewise, the Dexter brand of axles is considered to be superior to the competition (although the axle brand is a moot point if you plan to upgrade to the MORryde IS suspension which replaces the axles completely).
When our second factory-installed axle failed on our current trailer after our first axle failed and was replaced under our extended warranty, we replaced both axles with Dexter brand at our own expense (not under warranty) and have been very pleased.
So, in our evaluation of toy haulers during our own personal search for ourselves, the brands we focused on came with these MORryde and Dexter components. Generally, if a brand doesn’t specify in its marketing literature that it has a MORryde or Dexer branded component, then it doesn’t have it. There is marketing value in advertising that your trailer includes these brands, and the RV manufacturers call it out in their literature.
One of the side benefits (or disadvantages, depending on your point of view) of massive industry consolidation is that a hugely dominant parts supplier can strong arm its customers into buying its products by bundling them or offering other perks as part of the deal, something like: “If you buy our doors and windows we’ll throw in our stairs for free,” or “If you buy our stairs and ramp door we’ll warranty the frame for three years.”
MORryde Zero-G Ramp Door
Check out this video comparing the deployment of the MORryde Zero-G ramp door and the Lippert ramp door:
MORryde StepAbove
We like the old fashioned flip down front stairs on our fifth wheel, but that design is antiquated these days. The MORryde stairs called the “StepAbove” deploy easily.
FINAL TID-BITS
One of the interesting fallouts from the wholesale decimation of the RV industry that began in 2008 and went on until 2013 or so is that the smaller companies that survived the downturn did so because they engaged in some true soul searching and revised their self-image.
The folks at B&W Trailer Hitches began making farm fencing, and they had enough cash flow to pay their employees to work for the town where they are headquartered, providing groundskeeping and other municipal services. This not only kept everyone employed but it heightened their pride in their town and their loyalty to their company. Amazing and very smart. The folks at MORryde also branched out into non-RVing related products in a similar way.
The management at ATC took a long hard look at how to motivate their assembly line workers to make the best product possible. Rather than providing incentives based on the number of units produced, which is a common metric, they offered incentives that focused on quality control and reducing mistakes and system failures. ATC has the longest and deepest warranty of all the fifth wheel toy hauler manufacturers.
PHEW — THAT WAS LONG!
We’ve got more thoughts to share as we ponder this fork in our less traveled road. At the moment we’re leaning towards a new traditional fifth wheel trailer because the triple-towing seems okay, but who knows what the coming months will bring as we travel further afield and encounter a wider variety of situations with our rig.
Stay tuned!!
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However, the travel bug was still biting us, so we decided to spend our summers RVing — in a toy hauler! It is a 2022 Genesis Supreme 28CRT.
This is an OPEN BOX toy hauler where there is a bedroom/bathroom upstairs but the entire downstairs area is a cavernous room with the kitchen at one end, a ramp door at the other and moveable furniture in between. The RZR rolls into that “garage” room when we get ready to tow. When we set up camp, the RZR rolls out and that huge room becomes our living area.
It is an ideal rig for our seasonal travels (4-5 summer months). I’m not sure if we’d want to live in an open box toy hauler full-time, however.
It took a little adjustment to learn how to live comfortably in this setup. However, the flexibility of the floor plan is fantastic and we LOVE the patio. There are lots of pics and details about our “toy hauler life” here.
2022 Genesis Supreme 28CRT Toy Hauler!
2022 Genesis Supreme 28CRT 5th wheel toy hauler floor plan
33′ long trailer with a 16′ garage.
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- CargoBuckle Ratchet Straps - These retractable straps make it a CINCH to tie down a side-by-side, motorcycle or ATV
- How to change a dually truck's inner rear tire - Tips for changing the inner rear tire on a dually truck.
- EASY SOLAR POWER UPGRADE - We TRIPLED our factory installed solar power output for CHEAP
- B&W Fifth Wheel Hitch - Why we chose this hitch for our fiver plus an easy 5th Wheel Hitch Installation Guide.
- Demco 21k Recon Fifth Wheel Hitch - This fifth wheel hitch mounts on a gooseneck ball in the truck bed!
- Increase Your RV Storage Space - Add precious storage space at the RV dinette with storage benches!
- Buying a Truck - Which options turn an ordinary diesel pickup into a massive TOWING MACHINE?
- Battery Charging Primer - The low-down on RV and marine batteries and how to charge them effectively.
- Which Solar Panels are Best? - Which is better: FLEXIBLE or RIGID?? 12 or 24 volt?? monocrystalline or polycrystalline???
- RV Solar Power Made Simple - An overview of how solar power works on an RV
- Trailer Disc Brake Conversion - Massively improve trailer stopping power with electric over hydraulic disc brakes
- Truck Engine Upgrade - How we improved performance, towing power and fuel economy with an engine tuner
- How to Defrost an RV Refrigerator in 20 Minutes - It is actually a cinch to defrost an RV fridge!
- Solar Charge Controllers - Understand and OPTIMIZE your RV / marine battery solar charging
- Wet Cell vs. AGM Batteries - Which is better, why we upgraded, PLUS wiring tips to optimize battery life
- Suspension Overhaul on a 5th Wheel - A Total Re-design for our Suspension: Hangers, springs, shocks & more!
- Can you run SOLAR POWER and SHORE POWER together? - What happens when you're on solar and you plug in?
- Converters, Inverter/Chargers and Engine Alternators - How do these battery charging systems REALLY work?
- RV Budget, Costs and Expenses - A detailed analysis of RVing expenses over 7 years of RVing full-time
- RV Extended Warranties - Is an RV warranty a good investment or a waste of money? Our personal case history.
- Working and Living on the Road - How do you make money on the road and who lives this nomadic lifestyle?
- Sell or Lease the House? - Is it better to SELL or LEASE your house when you start a life on the road?
- Mexican Dentists - Are the Dentists in Mexico any good? Just how cheap are they? Here are our PERSONAL experiences.
- How An RV Warranty Saved Our Bacon - Literally! - One repair on our RV practically paid for our RV Extended Warranty
- Still Smiling After 3 Days at the RV Repair Shop - Why? Our RV Warranty put us $2,000 ahead of the game!
- 5th Wheel Suspension Replacement - When our trailer's suspension failed, we $aved $$$ Thousands getting it replaced.
- RV Toilet Replacement - Our RV toilet quit flushing (ugh!) but our RV warranty saved us again. Now we're $6,700 ahead!
- RV Boondocking - Tips for how to live in an RV off the grid
- Which RV Is Best for Full-Time Living? - Transitioning from a house to an RV - Which RV makes the best home?
- Truck Camper Pros and Cons - The GOOD, the BAD and the UGLY!
- Full-time RV Lifestyle Tips - Full-time RVing Logistics - Mail, Domicile, Insurance, Warranties, Saving Money at RV Parks
- Toy Hauler Life - What's it like to live in an OPEN BOX Toy Hauler?
- What are the MOST IMPORTANT FEATURES in a Full-time Fifth Wheel? - For anyone planning to live in an RV!
- Internet & Phone Access for RVers - An inexpensive, minimalist solution for internet access on the road
- RV Dump Stations & Composting Toilets - How to do the dirty deed at the RV dump PLUS RV Composting Toilet tips
- Choosing a Trailer for Full-time RVing - Why the payload capacity is so important
- Learn RVing the Fun Way!! - Go Cheap, Go Small, Go NOW and have a blast in little RV!
- Free RV Campsites - Resources for locating campsites for boondocking
- Glimpses of the Full-time RV Life - Anecdotes from the road and essays about living the RV dream.
- Travel Photography Tips! - All the cameras, gear, books, blogs and tools we used to learn to take great pics!
- Gear Store - A list of the goodies, equipment and gear we've found useful in our RV lifestyle!
Our most recent posts:
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— Published March 2019
I wonder if you have ever considered a tire monitor system. Dont need the back up camera with that, and the tire pressure and temp is currently monitored. Put the sensors on both trailers.
That’s a great suggestion, Ron, and is definitely something we’ll consider.
I travel in a 35 ft motorhome with a 22 ft flat bed trailer with a polaris 1000 rzr, a fiat 500 and a motorcycle, looking for a traveling ATV club… Know of any?
No, I don’t. Good luck!
i probably missed it in your article, but i know for vehicles TAGGED IN florida, double-towing is illegal…..though i have friends that have done it…..i know it varies state to state that you are tagged in….
We have looked into it in depth, but my understanding is that it is illegal in quite a few states and that motorists must abide by the local laws when it comes to triple towing.
As always I enjoy your posts; chock full of great information. Glad it is working out for the three of you! Thanks! Nancy (Winnebago View)
You are welcome, Nancy. Thanks for reading!
Great subject matter as always…. I know all the Honda collectors have been waiting for the new TALON buggy to be delivered…. Some dealers have received this week. . More people will be into this hobby.
I’m sure the Honda Talon will be an incredible little buggy. How great that it is arriving at some dealerships now!
I’ve not commented before — just wanted to say how impressed I am with your posts. You have such a knack for getting to the heart of matters. I trust your opinion because you are so incredible thorough and thoughtful. I’m not fulltime, and probably never will be, but not because you haven’t made it look fun and easy! We recently bought our second used travel trailer after wrestling for MONTHS, researching useless (to us) layouts. I appreciate your insight into why and how the next year’s designs are based on a whim. We wander around at RV shows whining, “why can’t they…” and “who would want that?”. Now I know it’s because it is very hard for manufacturers to learn what people really want. I’ll speak up more in the future. Keep up the good work – I really enjoy and appreciate it!
Thank you for the compliments on our website, Jennifer. Sometimes I question my sanity as I burn the midnight oil while Buddy and Mark roll over and let out a sigh, but we’ve learned a lot in our journeys and I know how much it means to me when we find a good solid resource for info on a topic we’re learning about.
Touring the factories and talking to the various execs left us feeling quite low, and that’s part of why it has taken me so long to start writing about our search process. However, I think that we RVers can affect our market by getting the word out to the people who need to hear it. I don’t think RV manufacturers deliberately put out product that isn’t useable, they just don’t get feedback from their actual customers and prospective buyers, and they are guessing at what we want.
When I asked a designer why he put the stove/oven on the opposite side of the trailer from the beautiful U-kitchen he had designed instead of in the obvious spot that makes so much sense for the cook, he said, “That’s where I originally had it and where it belongs. But Sales told me I have to have an outdoor kitchen on that model, so I had to move the stove/oven to that inconvenient spot to accommodate the outdoor kitchen, and I lost lower cabinet space in the process.”
I can’t imagine dicing vegetables and carrying them 8 feet across the floor on the cutting board so I can saute them, and neither could he. But the Sales team felt an outdoor kitchen was more important than a good quality indoor kitchen. The Sales team needs to know that their decision has made their floor plan unusable to lots of folks and probably cost them sales…
Let your thoughts be known to as high up a person at each dealership as you can find. We will all benefit!
Emily,
Wow! That wasn’t an article, but rather a book! 😉 Given the caravan of lights, you and Mark should try some long exposures of the rig traveling up some windy roads. I’m sure it would create a nice effect.
Bob
It’s the keyboard’s fault, Bob. Actually, it was Mark and Buddy’s fault because they did an epic day of errands yesterday and left me behind for the day to do some writing. The only downside was that after they got home I kept on writing for another 8 straight hours and missed a day with them.
That’s a great idea about the caravan of lights on The Train. We’ll have to look for a good road to do that!!
Whew, Em, am exhausted from reading this wonderful, thought-provoking article! However, it’s one of the best articles ever, for us part-time RVer’s who are technically challenged, and who don’t have the stamina to do the massive research, as you and Mark have done……
As of now, Bette & I are probably sticking with a future tag-a-long caboose with either a Can-Am or Razor, depending on what deal pops up. Our 34 ft Montana is long enough, is extremely comfortable, and almost paid for. Even though the Grand Design Solitude is a high-quality, and impressive coach, we still have to get over sticker shock, at the end of a walk-through! You understand that, huh?…And it’s funny that our RV salesman, one of the very few knowledgeable people who actually owns an RV, and has full-timed for a number of years, still has – and likes – their 2008 Hitchhiker Champagne….
So, we’ll keep on following your adventures, and see where your “Road less traveled”, takes you. Take care, and safe travels…Glen & Bette
Ditto on all of that, Glen & Bette. One of the first questions I like to ask a dealership salesman is what kind of RV he/she owns. That puts the whole conversation in an appropriate light. Some of them have incredibly extensive knowledge and have owned a lot of RVs. We were convinced to buy a Hitchhiker all those years ago when a salesman told us he’d owned three and loved them all. We didn’t buy from him, but when it comes to sales, what goes around comes around, and I’m sure he sold plenty of Hitchhikers to other folks who had gotten the good word from another experienced salesman elsewhere.
We go back and forth on whether to keep our rig, buy used or buy new. Mark says, “Let’s keep what we’ve got!” and I say, “I’m ready for a new home with a new floor plan!” So there it is, total indecision in this household. Good luck with your research and purchase or non-purchase, and happy travels and off-roading!
its a shame that Hitch Hitcher does not make theirs anymore or we would have bought one of them . we got a good trade for ours but I still miss it but I like the room now to get it pad off like our old was :). But what we did do it get a extended warranty from reading your blogs. And that I could access the fridge when we stopped for lunch not many of the new ones you can do that with . . Again thank you for all your blogs and adventures 🙂
You’re not alone, Cheryl! Lots of folks would have bought Hitchhikers if they’d stayed in business, including us! They made a great trailer. Getting a warranty was an excellent idea, but hopefully you’ll never need it! Thanks for reading our blog and happy travels to you!!
Great article; thank you. For your bikes I have seen it where you can weld a ramp on top of each fender and along the outside of the rail which each bike can mount on. If you need additional support mount a vertical bar that is removable out of a socket. I don’t think it would make your trailer too wide hopefully with the bikes riding on the outside.
That’s an interesting idea, Dave, and might even be better than our old solution where the bikes sometimes rubbed on each other since they were mounted side by side nose to tail. We’ll ponder that one. Thanks!!
We got into a situation yesterday loading onto a ferry where we had to back up our 5th wheel due to an unseen obstruction. I’m guessing that with the the extra trailer you can’t back up. That would be a deal-breaker for me
We’ve backed it up about 50′ a few times. It just takes a little thinking to figure out which way to turn the steering wheel, and it would be a challenge to move backwards much more than that. I think if we were going to take a trip that involved a ferry we would leave the caboose behind before starting out.
WHEW…a ton of well-researched info – exhausting, but I read every word – always interesting. Will look forward to your decision ..and how it works out for you on your “Roads Less Traveled” !!!!
Thank you. There’s much to consider and we’ve learned a lot in the process. Hopefully we can light a path for others while we’re at it!
Wow! What an extensive article!! You guys outdid yourselves. Outstanding info. 🙂
Thanks, Ann!! And thanks so very much to both you and Phil for helping us as we work through our decision. Your 30+ years of experience with all kinds of rigs has been incredibly helpful!!
Excellent write-uo, really enjoy all of the details and thought processes you shared. I’d be nervous about triple towing, but it appears you’re making it work well (with your usual aplomb!). Like you, we need a significant drop to our ‘toad’ and so we got a drop adapter with multiple receiver openings; this allows us to put our bike rack in the top opening and our tow bar is in the bottom one — this works well for our setup. By the way, I’ll bet that cooler you carry is 55 quarts rather than 55 gallons 🙂
Thank you, David. We’ve looked at putting the bike rack on the hitch above the utility trailer tongue but figured we’d wait on that for now since we didn’t find a 10″ drop double receiver adapter right off the bat. Thanks for the gallons/quarts heads up — it would have dwarfed the RZR!!
Have you considered something that can tow a fiver and hold the ATV too? This is one example: https://www.rvhaulers.ca
We haven’t though about that. It’s an interesting idea!
how many states can you triple tow. We are thinking about doing the same thing expect with ATV’s. We just purchased a new Jayco North Point 38.7 with storage with a slide under the living room Den.can not wait till we can be full time RV’ers
Trailer Life has a list of triple towing states and laws. I’m not sure how up to date it is, but it gives you an idea.
How do you handle or plan to handle visiting states, such as Oregon or Washington, that don’t allow triple towing?
We take each state as it comes, and if necessary, we will drop the RZR and its trailer off at a storage facility before entering a state where triple towing is illegal.
Hey thanks a lot for this! (regarding RZR). I have a scooter that has about a 26 mile range (electric) that has knobby tires and made for off road that I was using as my “get around when boondocking” vehicle. I have a portable solar panel to charge in case I run out of juice and am away from my RV. I carry it on my scooter at all times in it’s carrying box thingy. I was most likely going to eventually go with a RZR (I am alone so nobody else needs ride), and I had no idea how I would tow it. That way looks fine!
You’re welcome, Gary. Have fun with your scooter and your future RZR!!
This is/was a good article. Actually we hadn’t considered this until we were looking at toy haulers and fifth wheels (non) and were trying to decide between the two, and the sales guy mentioned that the rig we were looking at had a class 3 hitch and we could tow the RZR. Then a quick search and there was your article. Now I am wondering how I find all of the fifth wheels that are designed to tow another trailer. Any ideas?
Thank you for appreciating my article, Dennis!
Most manufacturers will indicate whether you can get a hitch as an option in their sales literature and/or on their website, and you can always call the manufacturer. I don’t know of a way to do a single search to find all the rigs with a hitch option in one sweep.
Make sure the hitch is large enough to tow your trailer with the side-by-side in/on it. Some fifth wheels have a hitch option but it is intended to hold a bike rack or small tray for a portable generator. The difference is not only in the hitch itself but also in the strength of the fifth wheel frame and where/how the hitch is mounted on the fifth wheel frame.
I am learning like you that our ‘requirements’ are partially met by a number of manufacturers, but not yet fully met by any. I just finished reading your article from 5/2019 where you were looking for a toy hauler option. Cathie and I are there, too, and nothing is coming up that captures it all. We currently have a 2010 Carriage Carri-Lite 36XTRM5 that was substantially upgraded and is almost everything that we want, except (1) it is too long to tow a RZR, and (2) the clearance makes it tricky too often when venturing off the pavement. I think we have decided to sell the rig and keep looking for something smaller with many of the features we have grown to enjoy, but aren’t sure whether it will be a 5-er towing the RZR or a toy hauler. It comes down to quality then function or function then quality. We want them both.
Well, enjoy the search. We have gone through dozens and dozens of rigs, especially when I wrote a few survey articles for Trailer Life Magazine about both full-time fifth wheels and toy haulers in 2017-2019. We are currently leaning towards keeping what we have (or buying another higher quality older fifth wheel) and getting a second tow vehicle for the RZR trailer only because a properly built toy hauler is going to be insanely heavy and the modern trailers of every kind are loaded with features we don’t want (operating everything from a single motherboard, tying all hydraulic lines to one pump, etc., yikes!) and they are not built on a solid foundation and are not well constructed. It is discouraging that there aren’t great quality new trailers available, but for the moment it is what it is and a new trailer seems like a really risky purchase to us simply because they depreciate so rapidly. That nest egg cash could be better spent on something else…
Why would you call it triple towing? You only have 2 trailers, not 3.
As I mentioned in the beginning of the article, it is called both double and triple towing. The “double” refers to the two hitches. The “triple” refers to the three vehicles. The terms are used interchangeably.